Friday, February 13, 2009

God vs. Science


"Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues.

"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er..yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world? "

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it" And God did make everything correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer.

"Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?"

There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.

"Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him.'

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelled your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested.

The room suddenly becomes very quiet.

The student begins to explain, "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is t o be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?"

The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The student was Albert Einstein. Albert Einstein did write a book titled God vs. Science in 1921.

Jesus, Son of David, Have mercy on us. . .

40 comments:

Rae said...

i LOVE this.. I keep reading it!! lol. =)

Maria Lynn Gattuso said...

And I love you for sharing it with me....so that I could post it lol! you rock sista!

Lisa Sargese said...

And I sure would love to use it in class!!!

Maria Lynn Gattuso said...

Have at it cousin...what's mine is yours, of course. Happy Valentine's Day my love. xoxo

Anonymous said...

I loved it!!!!! very interesting....

Anonymous said...

Sorry to burst the bubble, Albert Einstein was not the student in the story. Check it out on snoops.com

Maria Lynn Gattuso said...

Sorry to burst your bubble Anonymous, but it's snopes.com not snoops.

Anonymous said...

Interesting, except Albert Einstein was Jewish, not a believer in Christ.

Maria Lynn Gattuso said...

Oh, poor uninspired snopes police...how in God's Holy Name would you know whether or not Albert Einstein believed in Christ or not. Did you know him personally? Were you one with his thoughts? And if this is the case, what difference does it make if a story is inspirational then it has served it's purpose.

Your time would be better served going on Photobucket to decifer the real proofs from the photo-shopped.

My guess is that you've got tons of time to do that. : ) with love

Luis E. Cuellar, PhD said...

A major inaccuracy in this story:

Einstein was Jewish.

Thus the answer to the question "You're a Christian, aren't you?" could not have been "Yes, I am". Thus the student could not possibly be Einstein.

I tried also verifying whether Einstein did write "God vs. Science" but could not find the citation.

John said...

When the student asks if the class have seen the professor's brain the class erupt in laughter.
The student says they have not seen, touched, tasted, smelled or heard his brain and there fore it is faith that makes the believe it's there.
But if that head was split open, we would find a brain. I have never seen, tasted, heard, smelled or touched the Statue of Liberty but if I travelled to America I would find it. But there's nothing I can break open to find God and no place to travel to (besides my death I guess).

Anonymous said...

John, look at faith as living out a belief that can't be seen or proven. What makes a 2 year old jump into a pool to their mom and dad? Faith that their parents will keep them safe. They don't know how to swim... It's trust, it's absence of fear to an extent. Go to nailscars.com and search for "He Trusts Me" and you will find a short paragraph about trust that speaks to me about faith. :)

Anonymous said...

The Bible's definition of "Faith" (HEB 11:1)Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.

tmr

Mark Renhaus said...

Wow. Just read the whole thing to my 17 year old. A miracle in and of itself. Also, strange interruptions attacked my presentation. The 17 year old was blown away. He loved. Best teachable moment around here in a long time

Anonymous said...

"Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

the story told us that he continue to another student which means that the first student he ask that if he is a christian was not albert einstein... so it could be possible that this story might happen

Anonymous said...

Great response! I love the complete turnaround that the professor got. These posts are true though, Albert didn't give this reponse. Doesn't take away from the power of this example though...

Anonymous said...

I love this message. I really think that it is great. That being said, I honestly do not believe that it is true. Like someone else mentioned Einstein was Jewish so when it says that the professor asks if he is a Christian and he says yes it shows inaccuracy in the story that definitely would not have been there if he wrote the story himself. Also I have searched for this book MANY times because I would love to read it, if it exists, but it just doesn't seem to. I wish that whoever made up this story didn't make it Albert Einstein in the story, because it would have carried a strong story without those horrible inaccuracies. If I am wrong and someone knows where I can get this book please let me know!

Anonymous said...

Well, there is a way to measure darkness.....When it is getting brighter outside, then that means that darkness is diminishing, until it reaches the point of absolute light....The same could be said of cold, when it is getting hotter outside, that means that cold is diminishing, until there is absolute heat.....just sayin.

Shelley Hussey said...

Got this God vs. Science message in a forwarded email today. My experience has been that 99.9% of forwarded emails of this nature are urban legends. This one did not disappoint.

The author of God vs. Science apparently felt as though he/she had to "help God" defend himself, by making up a story that employed the most famous scientist of the last century in the starring role, for extra points. Most readers will never check out information in a forwarded message to determine it's accuracy.

Regardless, I found myself rooting for the student.

Unknown said...

Everyone who said that this could not be from Albert Einstein because he was Jewish have missed one important idea. Someone can be a Jew and still follow Jesus or be compared to a Christian. Jesus himself was a Jew.

The way the story goes, being a Christian doesn't necessarily mean that you attend a Christian church, but that you believe in Jesus Christ, something which many Jews do.

Dave said...

The problem, of course, is that the arguments of the student have a flawed premise as well. He makes the statement that there is not evil, only an absence of God. The opposite statement could also be said, there is no good, just an absence of evil. Either is just as valid.

The fact is that the professor is right, religion is based on faith and faith alone.

Don't get me wrong. The religious have every right to believe whatever they want. I can believe there are green men on Mars... but I'm not going to waste anyone's time arguing how it is provable in any way. (I don't believe in green men on Mars, by the way.) :)

Cheers,
Dave

Maria Lynn Gattuso said...

It's amazing to me how many responses I've received from this post. I wonder what to make of it...

Ultimately, I believe that everyone wants to believe in what they believe...I also think that some would like to be proven wrong/right depending on their position. Either way, love the dialogue.

andy5 said...

Albert Einstein certainly did not say this, I think he was more philosophical than Jewish and certainly not Christian. God will have to defend himself on this one.

The idea that a good and omnipotent God has found a way to allow evil to come into being I find quite miraculous, but more plausible to me than the idea that pure mindless matter has found a way to become good or evil, or that good and evil don't exist. <- My 2cents.

Anonymous said...

Interesting how a spiritual, teaching moment has to start with a complete fabrication. Isn't there a book of those kinds of stories ? I think <King James might have been the editor, but I can't be sure ...

Anonymous said...

How come I can't find the book that this is supposed to have come from?

Sodium Man said...

I really enjoyed this story and will use it at school. I am a science teacher with faith in Jesus, although no happy will God at the mo.. I have explored a similar vein in my own speaking at school. Read it at my blog at www.sodiumscience.blogspot.com

Thanks Maria

Anonymous said...

Einstein was born Jewish, but he firmly denounced any concept of a "personal god."

This kind of idiocy neesd to come with a warning label: "WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO READ WAS MADE UP BY SOME RELIGIO-WHACK AND HAS NO BASIS IN REALITY."

And yes, one of my professors knew Einstein personally.

Einstein published a paper in Nature in 1940 entitled “Science and Religion”[61] in which says that: “a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings and aspirations to which he clings because of their super-personal value … regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a Divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance of those super-personal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation … In this sense religion is the age-old endeavour of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals, and constantly to strengthen their effects.” He argued that conflicts between science and religion “have all sprung from fatal errors.” “[E]ven though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other” there are “strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies … science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind … a legitimate conflict between science and religion cannot exist.” In Einstein’s view, “neither the rule of human nor Divine Will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted … by science, for [it] can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.” (Einstein 1940, pp. 605

Unknown said...

Kayla,
Umm, Hello, seriously people, did you not read the story or what? Cause the point is that,no, there is not proof of god, theres only faith. If you guys wanna be pessimistic old bags of chips go ahead and keep bashing the cute story and god. honestly, who cares if it wasnt albert, it was a good story and it made a good piont.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, none of this has any factual basis whatsoever. Einstein had nothing to do with this little ball of misrepresented information. This purely fictional story originated as a chain mail.

Not only that, but the second student's 'logic' is inherently flawed to begin with. He first makes the assumption that God = good. Sure, by any corporate catholic christian view that is a correct assumption, but it precludes the possibility of God being omnipotent.

The majority of said corporate mainstream religions will tell you that God is all-powerful, and there is nothing 'He' can not do, being the creator of all things. If this is the case, there is no thing or being that has the power to overthrow him in any manner.

This is the very DEFINITION of God. Omnipotent. For the student to exclaim that 'evil' is the absence of God is a logical fallacy. There is no such thing as an absence of God that is omnipotent. Absence implies inability. Think of the paradox: Can God create a stone so heavy that He can not lift it? The answer is no if you believe that God is omnipotent.

The student also tries to compare the lack of evidence that Jesus exists with the professor's brain. The professor has a brain. No, nobody has used any of their senses to observe the professor's brain. You don't have to. We know that the human body can't function, much less teach a class, without a brain. We know this because scientific studies have been performed since the dawn of time PROVING this fact. One does not need to SEE his brain to KNOW it is there. To try to use this logic to 'prove' that Jesus existed is, to be blunt, moronic.

Before you brainwashed religious fanatics chime in: I personally believe Jesus existed, but there is FAR less evidence to suggest that he did, than the professor's brain.

'Evil' is just as much a part of God as 'good'. Those are labels that we humans, with our limited mortal thought processes, created to understand something that is beyond our comprehension. God IS evil as much as he is good. Use your brains, people. Assuming you believe yours exists.

Maria Lynn Gattuso said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

To those that keep saying that Albert Einsteen is answering the question are you a christian, needs to reread the story. there are two different people the professor is questioning, the first one whoe answers the question Are you a Christian? is not the same student later in the story. reread it for yourself and you will find there are two differenct students who the professor has addressed

kate the great said...

I am glad people want to maintain truth. Stories that give hope and inspire "goodness" are beneficial to humanity but should correctly be referenced and written so as not to deceive. I feel that passing on this story without noting that the character WAS NOT Einstein is spreading a lie - even if its a feel good,white lie. If someone is trying to cultivate and strengthen their faith in God, a socially acceptably good goal, why would one want to be the person that provides hollow information to do so. It becomes a hinderance and opposing factor to the actual outcome of the goal.

mojedapoet said...

@Maria - To avoid the perpetuation of pointless argument or possible propagation of falsehoods, I would simply edit this post to read, "Legend identifies the student as Albert Einstein." I wouldn't include the reference to the book unless you can provide a link, but a link or at least reference to Einstein's article in Nature (as sited in one of the comments) would be a great addition. By the way, I like your playful attitude with the "snoper".

@those quibbling over Einstein being Jewish or Christian or whether it was even him in the story, Jewish and Christian are not mutually exclusive. Also, "believ[ing] in Jesus Christ" does not imply one is a follower of the Christian faith or that one believes Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God or divine in nature. However, I wouldn't expect most to know that. First, the existence of the man himself has been questioned, so to believe in him at a base level merely implies one believes he existed as roughly portrayed in Biblical history. Second, "Christ" means "annointed;" many believe in Jesus the Christ as a great or the greatest prophet. Some even believe he was annointed as "Savior" to show the "Way" of returning in full obedience to God's will, but deny his divine nature. There is historical evidence which suggests that Scriptural reference to the Trinity was written in by scribes. However, we cannot argue one way or another whether the scribe was acting on authority of the communal teaching of the early Church or merely his own understanding.

@Anonymous who shared the quote from Einstein's article in Nature - thank you. Unfortunately, most readers will find his writing style too complex to follow. To put it bluntly, as many people seem to have missed the same point made in the story, science and religion can NEITHER prove NOR disprove each others' premises. That is why the premises of the student are flawed; he was making a point by demonstrating the professor's flawed reasoning. That aside, the most important addition of your citation is that Einstein's quote "Neither the rule of human nor Divine Will exists as a cause of natural events" seems to me to clearly suggest that Einstein bore a faith in a Higher Power, spiritual energy beyond the ordinary power of humankind. Even those who declare a common religious faith often vary widely in their specific beliefs. I would have loved to have explored Einstein's. Even though I am a professed Roman Catholic, I have a feeling we would share more in common than I do with the brothers and sisters of my church family.

Anonymous said...

Jesus was a Jew. The first Christians were Jews. So, if Einstein was the one who said this, he could have been a Christian.

Anonymous said...

God IS omnipotent but that does not mean that he acts on what he observes. When the student says "the absence of God" he does not mean that God is physically absent, only absent in action. God does not control every little deail of our lives; that's why he has given us our own free-will

Anonymous said...

Unit 731:::TSUSHOGO was a clue from the gods about this Situation dating way back to World War II. They used their positioning to hide these Japanese atrocities, and blamed me for burying the Chinese Holocaust.
TSUSHOGO says something:::It speaks to the responsbility the Italains had for WWII, the Holocaust and for those people's involvement in the intentional destruction and exploitation of my life, both for the god's REAL reason and their positioning's reason, buried with their "respectable" multinational corporation client list.

Budget problems. Cut the military. Bring them home and end the wars. Let these countries experience self-determination and decide their own future. Didn't we learn this lesson in Vietnam???
Unfortunnately, the gods use the United States as one of their tools, using the spread of democracy to level the playing field and prepare the planet for a global event.

So many people don't care about global warming. They don't care about the Federal deficit/debt (outside of partisanship) and they don't care earning $400k for an $80,000/year job will eventually bankrupt the country. They have awarded themselves $400k pay and retirement packages, loading up their friends on the payroll during the boom 90s through the real estate bust while all services which the program were intended to fund now get cut to pay for it.
These people are often common public university labor. Not Ivy League, not private university.
This labor isn't good enough to command the salaries they are earning. And they understood this when they applied to the public university they settled on.
You can't expect a top-tier salary with a second-rate education.
In addition, public employment has earned the label of being "recession-proof" jobs, a benefit which was taken into consideration with lower pay packages as compared to corporate.
These are the people who will be here in the United States when bankruptcy is declared and society deteriorates into chaos. And they will deserve the anarchy which ensues.

Continuing the push for privatization, reinforced and supported recently with enormous public sector salaries and retirement packages.
Once achieved the gods will utilize the corruptive predisposition of the private sector economy, as seen with the sub-prime/bailout fiasco, to initiate economic catastrophy and initiate the bankruptcy proceedings of the United States.
Whether the cure for cancer/diseases or the permanant resolution of economic misery, before the gods remove these motivations to pray we will experience an inordinate deluge of each element, with economic misery being perhaps the dissallusion of the united States with bankruptcy.

The gods used the Italians to ruin life in the 20th century.
The gods used the Italians to ruin life in A.D. with The Church.
The Church controlled Western Civilization. As the largest land owner in Europe they controlled the monarchies. They were responsbile for slavery, crack babies and thug life/drive-bys, revenge for African invasion and rape of Italy. They created religious and social discontent through the Church, ultimately leading to the disfavored dumping ground known as the United States.

Color photographs shortly after the 4.16.06 San Francsico Earthquake found.
They deserved it. Just like New Orleans deserved it.
Sadly San Francisco was used to set up the Italian dominance, eliminating the diverse business/banking interests and replacing it with Gianinni's Bank of Italy. Of course the fires were instrumental in ensuring complete rebuilding.
Imagine how the gods sold the Italians this, and compare it to how they sold them on preparation for WorldWarII.

Expect the gods have instructed AI to organize the universe so planets mature and descend while the gods can give them their full attention during their period of planetary devolution, and claims of heirarchy are yet another lie.
Says something frightening, doesn't it?

Anonymous said...

Holy crap this article is retarded. The student did make some good points but just curious, how does this prove a biblical god exists. HUH????? damn Christians are so ignorant. read your own damn book before you go searching for articles like these.

Anonymous said...

Cute story ... but not true .. check it on SNOPES.com
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

I also looked at books written by Einstein on Barnes & Noble website and could not find God vs Science.

Did you get this from the email that is floating around or did the email start here? I KNOW YOU WILL NOT APPROVE THIS COMMENT.

AgThorn said...

I love the simple logic in this story, and am a strong believer in God and His plan for us. However, I find it wrong to 'pretend' this was written by or about Albert Einstein. There is no evidence of this, and further Mr Einstein although not documented as an athiest was recorded as not really being too big of a supporter of our belief in God and life hereafter as defined by current beliefs. I do not find it a positive thing for us to 'pretend' that Mr Einstein wrote this, without better evidence.

Again, I am a supporter of the 'argument' though, and it is well written.

Anonymous said...

Outstanding, complicated yet made simple.